2012 NHL Trade Deadline: Jeff Carter Traded to LA for Jack Johnson and a First Round Pick
by Mike MacLean on Feb 23, 2012 8:39 PM EST
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Some interesting chatter developed earlier this evening in the twitterverse, and it involved Jeff Carter being traded to the Los Angeles Kings.
Darren Dreger of TSN kicked things off with this tweet, with fellow TSN insider Bob McKenzie following up. Kelly Chase, part of the St.Louis Blues broadcast team, then gave us this tweet, saying that Columbus scouts have no interest in goaltender Jonathan Bernier. Aaron Portzline of the Dispatch agreed with Chase's comments.
Then something interesting happened- Rich Hammond, who writes the LA Kings Insider blog, gave us this tweet, (a link to his blog) which was soon after retweeted by the official Kings twitter account. Now, I'm unsure of how common it is for an official team account to RT speculation and rumor, but this one seemed strange, even though Hammond is a beat writer for the Kings' official site.
EDIT: At 8:32 PM EST, Darren Dreger announced that the deal had been finalized.I've modified the post below to reflect this.
The trade goes down as Carter to the Kings for Jack Johnson and a first round pick. If Carter was truly unhappy as a Blue Jacket, shedding his huge contract and attitude alone is a positive. The first round pick almost goes without saying- the Jackets will need to stockpile as many draft choices as possible over the next year or so, to give the rebuild the proper base. The pick is conditional on whether or not the Kings make the playoffs, if they do, the pick is in June. If not, the pick is in 2013.
Jack Johnson is the key piece coming back to the Jackets. He's a legitimate top-four blueliner, who loves the physical stuff and has a decent offensive side. He's currently sitting at 8G-16A-24PTS in 61 games played, already tieing his career high in goals. Last season he finished with 42 points, playing in all 82 games. The 42 points were a career high. Since making the jump to the NHL in 2006-2007, he's been dogged by terrible plus/minus numbers. He's a career -90. Johnson is in the first year of a seven-year deal, which has a cap hit of $4,367,143 per season. His actually salary sees him paid $3.5 million in the first three seasons, and $5.0 million in the final four. All numbers are of course, thanks to Cap Geek.
To be honest I'm happy that this deal doesn't involve Jonathan Bernier. I think it's about time the Jackets focused on acquiring an experienced goaltender, rather than going on potential alone. Bernier has the talent, that much is known, but he barely plays and has yet to fill the role of number one goaltender.
For the Kings, this move makes sense. They are dead last in scoring. Carter and Richards are best buds. The Kings have Slava Voinov and Thomas Hickey waiting in the wings on defense. All signs point to this deal going down sooner, rather than later.
I am very much in favor of this deal. Defensemen who can skate and put up points are hard to come by, and Johnson is signed long-term at a decent cap hit. The pick will likely be in the middle of the round, giving the Jackets a shot at a pretty good player to add to the stable.
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If that happens, you have to think spending on a goalie will be a priority, possibly using some of the salary freed up by Vermette and Juice.
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Why not try and get del zotto for carter?? I think he has much higher upside then Johnson and I believe a smaller cap hit as well.
by Jackets Shocker on Feb 23, 2012 8:30 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Because the Rangers wouldn’t do that trade.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
They should though.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 23, 2012 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
DONE DEAL
Carter for Johnson and first. Not as bad as it could have been, but could have been better IMO. Still not terrible
https://twitter.com/#!/RealKyper/status/172860939287273473
Look for the 1st pick in #Kings – #Bluejackets deal for Carter to be conditional depending on how far the Kings get.
jack johnson
Does johnson’s plus/minus concern anyone else? Would you consider it equivalent to the voracek and first rounder we gave up for carter?
by littletimmy on Feb 23, 2012 8:54 PM EST via mobile reply actions
His Corsi is amongst the worst in the league. While Voracek and Couturier have both been dominant on the Corsi stakes. I feel bad for you guys, coz you’re sticking through a very tough season, but the whole Carter affair has been a very negative blot in the CBJ history.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Feb 23, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
I have wondered about his plus/minus before but he does possess great skill and size. I really think that he will fit in very nicely and will instantly upgrade the blueline. His salary is also not too bad for a guy with his skill set. The first round pick could be really nice too, but it depends a little bit on where LA ends up this year and it could be used in another trade, for instance to get a good goalie.
First of all, thank you Jeff Carter and good luck. I am glad you went out with a hat trick, and it made me wonder what could have been. I am totally okay with Johnson (this guy is good) and a first rounder although I am also surprised that Bernier wasn’t part of the deal. Even if Bernier was a backup goalie with the potential to take over the Nr.1 spot in a couple of years (if we get another Nr.1 goalie), I think we should have tried to get him. So this means that Howson/Patrick has already spotted their Nr. 1 goalie elsewhere and might already be involved on making that deal. I know this is pure speculation, but my theory is that a big deal involving the Flyers is a possibility.
Here’s why. I found it very strange that Howson/Patrick spent so much time talking to the Flyer’s GM Holmgren (about Nash), when everyone knew that the Flyers needed defensemen (which they signed) and were so close to the cap already. Then Howson/Patrick traded Vermette and cited flexibility as the main purpose of the trade. We all know that this was just a salary dump. So why would Howson/Patrick decide to dump salary now, and not at the end of the season when they could potentially fetch more for a guy like Vermette?
Well, enter the Flyers and their salary cap issues. Holmgren is very interested in Nash, and Howson/Patrick are very interested in young players like Couturier, Schenn and Van Riemsdyk (not all of them but maybe two) and could use a goalie like Bobrovsky. I think that the Vermette salary dump could be used to craft a deal with the Flyers so that they can still stay under the cap. Exactly what that deal would entail, I will leave to others to speculate on but I am guessing that we will see Nash moved before the deadline, especially since the Carter deal is now out of the way. Yes, I understand that my reasoning is based on one speculative idea on top of another, but I think it’s at least plausible. What do you guys think, have I entered Internet speculation lunacy land or could something like this happen?
I don’t think so. I’m not sure what Howson was trying to cook up in Philly. But my opinion is that if they aren’t interested in Bernier, they almost certainly can’t be interested in Bobrovsky. He’s been struggling a bit this year.
The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. I think the gamble on Mason has left a sour taste in Howson’s mouth when it comes to young goaltenders with unproven potential. One option, if the team can lock up a decent veteran for just a few years, this upcoming draft has several great goaltending prospects. Malcolm Subban, Oscar Dansk, and Andrei Vasilevski are all projected to go in the latter half of the 1st round or in the first few picks of the 2nd. Instead of trading for it, we scout those guys, and maybe take one of them with the LA pick. If that doesn’t work out(LA misses playoffs), the best part of the miserable season, is that we’ll have either the 31st or 32nd overall pick as well. Maybe one of those guys will be available.
That said, I don’t see the Flyers being that willing to make a big move for Nash. I don’t think the return will be enough. Besides, no matter how much cap space we clear, the Flyers are lacking it, and wouldn’t be able to absorb Nash’s contract. All the Flyers big salaries are essential players, I don’t see them coming over to CBus in return for Nash. If the Nucks had more cap space, I’d say it was Corey Schneider and prospects/picks, for Nash, but they don’t. Maybe Howson tries to pry Rask away from the B’s? That’s such a long shot.
I think the most likely deadline Nash deal is with the Rangers, and that’s a 50/50 shot. That still leaves the goaltending question open. How is Howson planning on fixing it?
You make a lot of good points, and I realize I was probably reaching a bit with that one. We’ll see what happens. I would love to get Schneider but I have not seen anything that indicates that Schneider would be moved before the deadline. Maybe Howson is willing to pay big bucks for him after the season.
You can’t say it wasn’t warranted. For all of Howson’s interest in Philly, there had to be something brewing there. I just don’t think Holmgren is that interested.
The more I’m looking at mock drafts and reading about these guys, all three goaltenders mentioned above seem like pretty solid prospects.
Maybe that’s Howson’s long term plan, is just to sign a proven veteran fill-in, draft a good goalie prospect, and grow our own talent. It’s a longer term approach, but if that’s the route we take, I’m on board. It’ll allow an upcoming Nash deal to fetch more prospects and picks instead of using up a lot of his collateral on a netminder.
Part of me still hopes 61 stays, and gets to finish out his career here, and be part of the rebuild. Sadly, I think that ship has sailed. Howson wouldn’t have asked him to waive his NMC, and put him on the trading block without the intention of moving him.
What veteran goalies will be available after the season, do you know? Or are you thinking that a goalie will be acquired by trade? I agree that it would be best to not trade Nash for a goalie and load up on talent and prospects, but we desperately need a Nr.1 goalie. We can’t wait until the last minute and end up with Mason and Sanford (no disrespect) again.
I know. Sadly, the free agent pool is full of goalies…….of the backup variety. I’m not sure what Howson has up his sleeve, but another year with Mason in net is just not acceptable.
Vokoun is there, and Harding has posted starting-caliber numbers in his backup workload.
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by red army line on Feb 25, 2012 1:27 AM EST up reply actions
So what’s next?lol I doubt we trade for a goalie until the offseason.. So who else do we dump now? I have to guess umberger has to go as well bc of his salary.
by Jackets Shocker on Feb 23, 2012 8:56 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I don’t have anything against Carter, good luck to him! But I feel ok about this deal. Carter was unhappy with being traded from Philly in the first place and then with this season, probably hated Columbus. I’m happy we can get that out of the locker room. And I think JJ will be a good addition to the defense. I think there is a lot of negative comments because Scott Howson is GM and to them, he just can’t make a good deal even if it brought Lundqvist to Columbus.
STILL BELIEVE COLUMBUS
Carter fleeced the Jackets. Columbus gave up way more than they got. It sucks dealing with no leverage.
by NTB on Feb 23, 2012 9:08 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Columbus gave up way more than they got.
I disagree with this. Johnson is a much better player, signed for much longer than Voracek. We gave up an extra third round pick, but I think all in all we came out about even.
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by notthatnoise on Feb 24, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
And we traded Filatov—who’s currently in the KHL JUNIOR league—for an early 3rd round pick last June and drafted one of the best scorers in college hockey in TJ Tynan. We basically traded Voracek and Couturier for Johnson and whomever we take with the Kings’ pick, whenever that is.
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I don’t typically re-post things I have said earlier, but I still feel this is true about Johnson. I think Jack Johnson is a perfect match for the Jackets. He is big and strong but can also really move the puck. As far as being a big bodied d-man, I actually think he has some of the best hands in the league. Not only is he very good on the point, good at both passing and shooting, but he is also great in shootouts. Above and beyond that his salary seems very reasonable for his skillset. One more thing, I think he played for Michigan and grew up in Indianapolis so he should fit right into the Midwest.
With Johnson though, the puck wont be in the defensive zone as often because he is a puck mover. Adding Johnson instantly adds a player that can make a play out of the defensive zone for a scoring chance.
Maybe if he played in the NHL like he plays internationally, but his time in LA doesn’t bear that out, unfortunately.
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by red army line on Feb 25, 2012 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
Avs fan here,
Sorry for your loss there. Sincerely hope you guys get more for Nash, I’ve always wished CBJ could find a little more success. See ya’ll tomorrow night!
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by Cole D Hamilton on Feb 23, 2012 9:18 PM EST reply actions
Howson said hes not looking at getting a number one goalie right now. Holy shit, dude. My confidence in you is fading quickly
So what is his plan for a Nr.1 goalie? He did however seem to indicate that Vermette’s salary dump could be used over the next few days. interesting.
It’s puzzling. Maybe the NHL will let us just hang up a shooter-tutor in Nationwide. I bet it has a better save pct than Mason
He has to do that in the offseason.. Schneider has to be his target and Vancouver won’t part with him till the offseason
by Jackets Shocker on Feb 23, 2012 9:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
On the bright side...
After dealing two of our top four centers(and Pahlsson will be gone soon) JoHo has to be played at center right?
by Ryan Sheets on Feb 23, 2012 9:28 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Hawks fan
Hope you guys get something going sooner then later. I am not sure what your GM is trying to do, but I am confused.
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Feb 23, 2012 9:30 PM EST reply actions
From a King's Fan
http://kingshockeyforwomen.com/2012/02/23/goodbye-jack-mf-johnson-we-send-our-best-to-you/
From a King’s fan to let you know how lucky you are to get JJ!
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A lot of people on here seem upset, but actually a lot of media seem to think we got a good deal. Im not sure yet. I want to see JJ play. Might be a good move considering the circumstances, who knows. Johnson has never been a go to guy
To be fair, you never know if a trade is good until a few years or more after. A first round pick doesn’t typically come cheap but it can still be hit or miss. Although I was hoping for Bernier, a first round pick can also net a very good player (why not a goalie) for the future. I think we got a pretty fair deal and LA was desperate which helped.
I think this deal was very fair. We gave up Voracek, a first, and a third, and got Johnson and a first. The first we received is worse than the first we gave up, and there’s the extra third rounder, but Jack Johnson is way, way better right now than Voracek was when we traded him, and probably still is.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 24, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
What exactly is Jack Johnson good at?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 24, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
Putting up points and being exciting. I realize that second part doesn’t help win games, but I don’t care. I’m in this for entertainment, I would rather watch a team lose 6-5 than 3-2.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 24, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
This is less of an answer and more of a generalization, but he was picked 3rd overall in the 2005 draft, played for the U.S in the Olympics, and had an NHL GM trade a proven scorer for him. A lot of fans on here don’t like the deal and seem to feel like the Jackets got hosed, but actually a lot of people think we won this deal including Mike Johnson, Craig Button, and many NHL beat writers including those that cover the Flyers. Bob McKenzie said “Jack Johnson is a top two or three defenseman in the National Hockey League.”
So obviously he is good at something. Hes only 25. He is still very young. I trust McKenzie’s opinion on him. Some of the stats can be misleading. We will have to wait and see.
I’m a fan of this trade. While Mason has been pores yet again this year, our blue line perhaps left just as much to be desired during long stretches. This was a fantastic trade, but in the end I still feel we gave up more in the Voracek trade than we ultimately got back.
At the risk of being a Debby Downer, there is was aspect of this deal that really, really scares me. If this rebuild is a slow paced, long-term one, who are the fans going to come to see if we also trade Rick Nash? The franchise has a rapidly eroding core fan base. Many of the casual or fringe fans that still come do so largely because of Nash. If we don’t have super star to sell tickets anymore … how much more cavernous if Nationwide Arena going to feel in the coming seasons? Obviously, I think the last thing we should do is trade Nash.
In closing, Jeff Carter, thanks for your two hat tricks … and not much else. Take your bad attitude and bad vibes with you to LA. We deserve better.
Go Jackets!
I think even though it’s obviously a different situation, you can look to the Cleveland Cavaliers for a little hope. That team still loses most of their games, but they’re young and exciting, so people come to watch.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 24, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
I had no idea...
Jack Johnson has had the worst +/- on the team in each of his last four seasons:
2011/2012: JJ is last on the team with a -12 this year. The next regular defenseman is Matt Green at -1. (Alec Martinez is a -7 in 31 less games than JJ,)
2010/2011: JJ is a team worst -21. Next regular defenseman is Rob Scuderi at +1.
2009/2010: JJ is a team worst -15. Next regular defenseman is Matt Greene at +4.
2008/2009: JJ is a team worst -18. They sucked (Doughty -17).
Damn
Hmmmm….he’s still widely regarded around the league as a pretty good defenseman. Numbers don’t lie, but from all accounts he’s pretty decent. Odd.
…that takes a little wind out of the sails, doesn’t it?
Hmmmm….he’s still widely regarded around the league as a pretty good defenseman
Not really. There are a lot of people out there that will tell you JJ is just terrible. He’s quite the offensive talent, but defensively he’s horrendous.
+/- is often a terrible stat, but in this particular case, it’s fairly accurate.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 23, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
Funny how +/- is a terrible stat unless it supports your argument.
Not calling you out or trying to start anything – I just get tired of seeing that comment.
I’d say he’s a top 4 defenseman on most teams, maybe not counting your elite D groups. The Jackets have two top four defensemen, so this is an improvement, no matter how small some people want to make it seem.
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Like I said, not trying to start anything.
It’s just funny how it gets dismissed, unless you’re trying to argue that such and such player is terrible.
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We’re all big boys/girls talkin hockey. +\- is usually always a terrible way to judge a player. Having said that, when you are consistently 10 to 20 worse than your next closest teammate…. That’s a pretty good indicator that you are not effective at preventing goals.
I feel bad for the good fans like you that have an inept gm and talent evaluators and have to defend and justify moves like this. I’m not as high as others are on Bernier but at least that move would have been defendable.
Not trying to defend Jack Johnson, this move, and at no point have I said whether I disagree with you or George.
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I would honestly use +/- about a billionth on the list of trying to argue JJ’s quality.
But since most people jump right to that because they don’t know any better, it’s worth pointing out whether or not it’s actually a good representation. 99% it’s not, but in this case, it is.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 24, 2012 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
Holdup!
You will hear crap from fans about the +/- and such and know that all though its true, you have to take it with a grain of salt considering our team CANNOT score. So he is up against the scoring lines of the other teams and they score. I just really can’t tell you how much you have to judge for yourself.
Also, JJ always plays in DD’s shadow. When DD when on IR, JJ took charge and was amazing! I always wanted that for him. Listen to the blow-hards with a grain of salt. You can make your own judgement after he plays for you. And I promise, you will be happy
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you have to take it with a grain of salt considering our team CANNOT score.
At five-on-five, the Jack Johnson has the highest goals for per 60 minutes of ice time among defensemen. While the Kings can’t score, they can’t score for anybody. And they do as well on offense with Johnson on the ice (1.76 goals/60) as Drew Doughty (1.74 goals/60). Doughty is +0, Johnson -12.
Offense is not why Johnson’s plus/minus is bad.
So he is up against the scoring lines of the other teams
Johnson ranks 4th among Kings dmen in Quality of Opposition based on opponents’ plus/minus. He’s not out against other teams’ scoring lines, he’s facing their second and third scoring lines. If you use Corsi instead of plus/minus, Johnson ranks either 3rd or 4th in terms of how well his opponents control the puck.
In neither event is Johnson out against the scoring lines, or best lines, of other teams. He is a second pairing defender in L.A.
and they score.
This is true. No defenseman on the Kings gets scored on more often than Jack Johnson. He has the highest goalst against per 60 minutes of ice time on the team.
Listen to the blow-hards with a grain of salt.
Jack Johnson is an offensive defenseman who has consistently lost the puck possession battle against second and third line opponents despite starting in the offensive zone.
You can add salt to that, but it will still taste like another power play specialist who can’t play defense very well.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 24, 2012 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Plus minus is absolutely the worst stat ever.
CCT, CBJ, SU, NYM, Bills Fan. It can be depressing.
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It is good as a relative indicator compared to his team
But other factors should be looked at as well, QUALCOMP, GF/60, GA/60 etc….
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Feb 23, 2012 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
JJ’s ES GA/60 is the 2nd worst in the league over the last 4 seasons, ahead of only Del Zotto.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 23, 2012 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
Carter
Ranger fan here, I can’t believe I read somebody who posted on here earlier suggested that the rangers trade Carter for Delzotto and I almost fell off the chair I am sitting in, jeez. To fill you in, Delzotto, stepan, Mcdonaugh and Kreider are untouchables and ranger fans and the organization are not interested in carter. Bluejacket fans should be elated that Howson was able to trade Carter. I can’t believe that lombardi actually traded for Carter and reunited him with Richards. I guess Lombardi didn’t get the memo about those two jabroni’s together in Philadelphia. I can imagine how those two are going to be in LA LA land, good luck.
I continue to be confused as to how Kreider, an entirely unproven NHL player (that is to say, he’s still in college and hardly the most impressive player this year) is that highly regarded that you wouldn’t want to give him up for Jeff “30-40 Goals per season” Carter or Rick “Seriously, if you don’t get it you’ve never watched him play even once” Nash. There is no guarantee he comes even close to what Carter and Nash have been through their entire careers. I’m just saying.
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by zekebud on Feb 23, 2012 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
zekebud
because Carter is a bad character guy who is not a two way player, one dimensional player and doesn’t fit the rangers system, that’s why. If you don’t understand that, well, don’t know what else to say.
If that’s you’re main reasoning to say that, that’s a very valid argument. Absolutely no problems there. But the knee-jerk reaction that a Carter or Nash isn’t worth moving Kreider just seems uninformed without context, and I say this as somebody who follows college hockey pretty regularly.
CCT, CBJ, SU, NYM, Bills Fan. It can be depressing.
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Carter may not be a Datsyuk type two-way player, but one-dimensional is just not accurate. He is a pretty good face off guy and he is a smart at positioning. In terms of his character, there are a lot of rumors, but nothing much of major substance. There have been many guys over the years that have been “bad character guys” and been very successful. My point is that he is a proven elite scorer and as such he has much more value than an unproven prospect. With that said, I think you are right that he is not a good fit for the Rangers. Although I get the impression that Rangers fans don’t want to give up anything, even for Nash. And why would you when you are already the best team in the league?
Ville A
well, I admit, I’m one of them but I would say it’s 80% against getting Nash and 20% for Nash. The main reason for me is what I said in my other post. The contract is a cap killer. I or nobody knows what the new CBA is going to look like and to give up what Howson is asking for is crazy. The rangers already have three big contracts on there team and adding Nash would hurt them down the road plus giving up some of there future. I guess if Howson came down on his asking price I might change my mind. I do know one thing, when it comes to trades sather is very Shrewd.
Carter’s actually pretty close to Datsyuk. He’s closer to Bergeron, but he’s not far off Datsyuk. Proof.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 24, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
zekebud
and on Nash, the guy has one 70+ point season in his career and with the contract he has he isn’t worth it in a salary cap era, especially when the rangers have already three big contracts not to mention Howson’s asking price. If you don’t get it, oh well.
I agree
From what I hear, CBJ is asking WAY TOO MUCH for Nash! It really does not benefit the acquiring team with what they lose. Plug one hole to fill another AND mortgage the future? Not happening. Why would another team trying to rebuild give away the future in prospects and picks, that IS their future.
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Feb 23, 2012 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t want this to be said in an argumentative tone, but if you can find 15 better forwards than Rick Nash I’d be shocked. He can legitimately take over entire games like a Malkin or a Crosby (just not as regularly). He has existed in a system with absolutely nobody else. Who was his best offensive counterpart on the Jackets teams all these years? Umberger? Vermette? Injured Jeff Carter? It’s really pretty pathetic.
I seriously predict that Rick Nash (if moved to a legitimate team) will win somebody a cup in the next 2 years. He is top 10 in goal scoring since the lockout and has never had anybody to feed him things or even shield him from top opposing defensive players. Great teams since the lockout have had multiple star players. Nash has never been afforded that.
CCT, CBJ, SU, NYM, Bills Fan. It can be depressing.
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HE IS Good, without doubt
but this
He can legitimately take over entire games like a Malkin or a Crosby
is NOT what the competing teams are really looking for. They are looking for that ADDITIONAL forward, not THE forward. The competitive teams looking for him already have 2 or more high power lines, and just want another scorer to compliment and add depth. When that is what the teams are looking for, the asking price is just WAY too high.
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Feb 23, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
I second that. However, Nash is not a playmaker, he is a scorer, so don’t expect him to set up his teammates all the time. Points totals are always skewed towards passers, not scorers, so that’s another reason his points totals hasn’t been as high as one might assume.
Points totals are always skewed towards passers, not scorers, so that’s another reason his points totals hasn’t been as high as one might assume.
That’s a fair point, but it’s also a big reason why his contract is seen as very much not worth it. No one denies his goal scoring ability, but to be paid like Malkin/Crosby, he’s got to have that passing element to his game as well.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 23, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
I will be the first to admit that he is not a great passer. Not bad, but nowhere near great, and if I was a GM this would be a deal breaker. With that said his value is still much higher than his points total.
It is, but not enough to justify the $7.8m. As I just said below, the NYR already have 3 guys tying up a lot of money, a 4th would really compromise their ability to round out the lineup down the line.
If Gaborik’s deal were expiring or RIchards went to Toronto instead, I think you’d see a much different reaction regarding adding Nash than the mostly opposed view you get now.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 23, 2012 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
I’d like to know what position you hold in the Rangers organization that gives you such insight into it’s inner workings. From the massive rumormill surrounding the trade deadline, there is news that Sather is pursuing Nash, and that he did make Howson an offer. You can be as cynical as you like, but Nash is a real quality asset who Sather is trying to acquire. Whether or not a deal actually happens, that’s 50-50.
I am not sure what a #1 pick in a poor draft is worth. Maybe the 2013 would be better, it’s supposed to be a strong draft
Even in a weak draft their are good players up and down the first round.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 24, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
zekebud
forget about Kreider, getting Nash or carter has nothing to do with Kreider. Kreider is still in college and hasn’t sign a pro deal yet and when he does the rangers will have him play in hartford to learn the pro game. The rangers are finally building there team the right way, like the red wings and devils have been doing for 10 years, through drafting and developing and teaching the young players howw the rangers sytem is played. All I said was as of right now the rangers organization is very high on Kreider and will not include him in any deal.
I understand that other teams do building right. But that’s not really related to my curiosity here. I’ve never had a full explanation as to the allure of Kreider, why he is considered absolutely untouchable by fans and the organization.
Yes, he’s an impressive young player that any team would surely want to have in the potential pipeline, but what (in your mind) makes him unmovable even as a college player?
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Rangers aren’t known for generating top level offensive prospects, the thought of having one has many a fan salivating.
It’s really not as much about not thinking Nash isn’t worth Kreider, but that they want to see Kreider in Ranger blue, even if it fails. Plus NYers love to complain when things go haywire, so if he does flame out, it gives them something to do as well.
But also, Nash’s cap hit is brutal to take on when you already have Lundqvist/Richards/Gaborik making $20m combined.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 23, 2012 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
zekebud
Larry Brooks, writer for the New York Post and rangers had a article today stating that Stepan, McDonaugh, DelZotto and Kreider were untouchables. I’ve read other scouts from other teams and analyst say he is the real deal. I know for a fact Sather, Gordie Clarke and Shoeinfeld went to see him play in the Bean pot tournament when it was rumored that Howson wanted him included in a package for Nash. I guess they went there to see for themselves and felt the kid is going to be a 1st or 2nd line player and decided they don’t want to trade him. I don’t know that for a fact but like I said, it was in the papers today that he was a untouchable.
Nash
I realize Nash is the bluejackets franchise player and I’m getting the feeling that I hit a nerve with the bluejacket fans. I’m not trying to put down Nash at all, he is big, skates well, has a good shot. Nash is a good player. I’m confused why the bluejackets would want to trade him in the first place.
Yes, you did hit a nerve, but you are asking a very valid question. He might be traded because Nash has asked for it, but neither him or the team will talk about this. Clearly the Jackets are now doing a complete re-build and the thinking is that he will net a lot in return. They tried to build a team around Nash (half-assed maybe but still) and it didn’t work so they are now going a different route.
The Doug MacLean era is still killing the Jackets. He was just awful.
by NTB on Feb 23, 2012 10:43 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
It’s tricky. I personally never want to see Nash in another uniform. I’d be thoroughly disgusted with a trade as he’s one of the biggest reasons I was so willing to latch onto the Jackets in the first place.
But logically, moving Nash would be good if it set the Jackets up for things they don’t have and can’t otherwise get. If you’ve poked around here (and I encourage it – the Cannon staff are fantastic), any CBJ fans on twitter, or listened to some of the gripes even from national hockey coverage, recent comments often end up discussing how Blue Jackets have just abysmal goaltending. Like to the extent Lundqvist is unbelievably amazing this year? Mason is that much in the other direction, and the team really doesn’t have currently usable organizational depth of any sort in net. His save percentage allows for more 3 goals against per game on 30 shots, and only 6 teams in the NHL could even dream of keeping up with that on an average night.
If moving Nash can get a legitimate goaltender, maybe a defenseman or some high-end prospects/draft picks, the Jackets organization could seriously build itself across the board in a way that it has never done. Add that to the probable drafting of Nail Yakupov and the growth of Brassard/Johansen/Atkinson/Jenner and the offense would eventually (even if not totally) heal itself.
That’s the idea anyway. If there are no goalies and poor defensmen in the system, it doesn’t matter what anybody else does – the other team will just outscore you every night. That doesn’t mean that my immediate reaction to moving Nash would be very happy… but if it worked out instead of watching this death spiral every year, I’d be able to live with it.
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I think this move is unfortunate and is more reflective of the terrible season and gut-check, reactionary (potentially) job-saving moves by Scott Howson than anything else. I fully understand the perceived disgust by Carter and it’s certainly bad to keep an unhappy guy in the locker room. I’m just displeased that nobody organizationally had the foresight to anticipate or react to this kind of feeling by Carter. Were there no discussions with scouts, past teammates, anything to determine his personality, affinity to Philadelphia, or playstyle fit with the team?
In having this problem and in having an injured Carter for much of the early season, the Jackets were screwed twice by moving (for and rid of) Jeff Carter. First, they lost the chance at Sean Couturier. Secondly, they were forced into moving Carter at essentially his lowest value point of his career. This is not to say that getting Jack Johnson or a 1st round pick is a bad thing, but much like Vermette there should have been more if Carter was really playing like his old self. Then again, if there would have been more, perhaps the team would have been performing better and this nuclear nonsense wouldn’t even be happening…
This season just continues to suck.
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I think that if you just look at this particular trade, we did pretty well. We really need quality puck-moving d-men and we got one. If it’s true that Carter didn’t want to be here, this was the time to trade him. If you go back and look at what we had to give up initially to get Carter the equation comes out a bit differently, but do you know for a fact that we would have picked Couturier and that he would developed the way he has in Philly? Picks are always tricky, and at the time most people felt they would rather have guy a like Carter than a prospect. I think this deal will be good for us going forward, but we won’t know for sure for a few years.
Ville A
If Craig Patrick is the guys behind the scenes making the final call than the Bluejackets are in good hands because he did well for the rangers way back when and for pittsburg back in the Mario Lemieux days, he is a smart guy. If I was Columbus I wouldn’t trade Nash.
Good point, I truly believe that Patrick is the guy behind the new CBJ philosophy. Howson has said that the new strategy invloves getting guys with speed, skill and character (who wouldn’t want that?) which sounds just like something that Patrick would say. I also think that loading up on picks and young talent is the way that he re-built the Pens. According to Aaron Portzline at the Columbus Dispatch, Howson is leaning heavily on Patrick and I think that’s a very good thing.
Ville A
Hell yea, I realize you bluejacket fans have been through this before but you got the right guy calling the shots, Patrick will build this team the right way and he is very good with drafting, good talent evaluator.
if im not mistaken, we only have 11 offensive guys now
Nash,brassard,umb 1st
johanson,letestu,prospal 2nd
russel, phalson, dorsette 3rd
gilles, McKenzie, ?? 4th
wonder who will get called up
not to mention we now have too many D men when healthy, expect savard and moore to be sent down?, still got lebda and clitsome for final spot
why don't we send down Lebda? Moore's too good to be sent down.
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by PomeroyCBJFan on Feb 23, 2012 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
My guess is Atkinson or Kubalik gets called up.
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by notthatnoise on Feb 24, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
were also going to have lots of money to spend this offseason
what are some potential FAs yall think we might go after?
Zach Parise,Suter & Weber (getting one of those would be excellent), Semin,Kronwall,Jake (lol),Hemsky,Brad Stuart,Kunitz, Neal,Doan, Grabovski,Rinne, Brodeur,Krejci, Rask,Boychuk, Schneider,Carle, Green,Carlson, PK Subban,Carey Price, Oshie,Versteeg.
Getting Suter, Weber, and Rinne from Nashville would be the coup of the century, it won’t happen though.
Montreal has less than a million in cap space with no major contracts expiring, so they’ll have a tough time as it stands signing Subban and Price…I’d take either, especially Price.
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by PomeroyCBJFan on Feb 23, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
i dont think they will let carey price go, they will do whatever they have to in order to keep him
kunitz, oshie, versteeg are names i see on that list and can see coming. we will have to overpay though
Eww, Oshie. Not while Nash is on this team.
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by Heavysoviet on Feb 23, 2012 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Rinne already signed an extension in Nashville, so he’s off the list.
Price is an interesting idea, but I suspect Gauthier will do everything he can to keep him. OTOH, if Rask hits the open goalie market…
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by Matt Wagner on Feb 23, 2012 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
what about schnieder?
they cant realistically pay both luongo and schider big money can they? were gonna be the one of the main teams out there looking for a goalie with lots of cash to spend
by Berecki on Feb 24, 2012 1:11 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If indeed Carter did not want to be here, I give him props for never letting it show through the media. Certainly wasn’t like Adam Foote. No hard feelings. I do like this trade, keep stockpiling them picks, and Johnson is easily our best defenseman now. Just need to find a solution for a goalie.
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If the kings make the playoffs, Columbus will have 4 of the first 40 or so picks. Is that true?
by Gr8fulnfa on Feb 24, 2012 12:11 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Close
As of right now, if the Kings make the playoffs, we have our 1st and 2nd rounder. Which, the only team that could catch us on the Fail for Nail train is Edmonton(although they just won, pulling away by 11 points). So we’re looking at the 1st and 31st overall pick, maybe the 2nd and 32nd. Considering the Kings manage to make the playoffs, their 1st rounder could be anywhere from 16th-20ish overall. We get Ottowas 2nd rounder, but they are charging strong on a 4 game win streak, and look to have a pretty good shot at a playoff berth. Looks like that pick may wind up being around the 50th slot. Still, not bad to pick 4 times in the top 50.
You guys got fleeced
wow, Howson is utter fail
Consider this, something discussed by a variety of people: the Jackets traded Voracek, a 2011 1st and 3rd round pick, and are getting back Jack Johnson and a 2012 (or 2013) 1st round pick.
That doesn’t sound nearly that bad. Obviously the context doesn’t make it sound quite so nice, but the net movement effectively sorts out this way.
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If that makes you feel better about it then fine… But you just traded for the biggest defensive sieve in the league.
Clearly you haven’t watched too many Blue Jackets games if you think Jack Johnson is a downgrade.
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no one has watched many blue jackets games
its annoying when i read people who talk like they know whats going on here when i garentee they havnt watched any of our games.
We also recovered that 3rd round pick...
…with the Filatov trade at last year’s draft, which worked out well enough. Tynan is having a monster year at Notre Dame.
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And I think Filatov is out of the NHL.
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by notthatnoise on Feb 24, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Correct
He went back to the KHL, and his Russian team actually sent him down to the junior league earlier in January.
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Good trade
Carter was poison. A good D and a top pick = good for CBJ.
Ask yourself this question: who would you rather have, Sean Couturier or Jack Johnson? In the end, that is what the Carter trade ended up being.
Howson would be wise to hold onto Nash and wait until the summer if he’s going to trade him. It’s pretty clear that he’s a bad negotiator and coupled with the desperation that is CBJ, the jackets will just get fleeced again.
by NTB on Feb 24, 2012 8:30 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Revisionist history is easy. There’s no guarantee that Howson or any other GM would have picked Couturier with that pick. 9 times out of 10, proven skill is more valuable than potential. If anyone should know that, it should be Columbus fans.
I’m not saying this was a great deal, but it was about the best case scenario.
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by Andy Newman on Feb 24, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
How in the world is it clear Howson is a bad negotiator? I can’t think of a bad trade aside from the Carter one.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 24, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
I mean, Mark Letestu for a fourth rounder, Nikitin for Russell. Those are highway robberies.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 24, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
Wisniewski being paid like a good 2-way #1 d-man
-Overpaying Nash(still an elite goalscorer, just not the 5th best player in the NHL)
-Getting Carter for an early 1st rounder/Couturier + young cost-controlled RFA 40pts/yr playmaker in Voracek
-Trading a signed elitish/high-end checking center signed for a while in Vermette for a 2nd rounder and 2 lower rated pieces picks(4th rounder and Mcelhinney)
-The Tyutin contract is an ugly overpayment
And as you said: Trading Carter for a mid-1st and the worst top 4 d-man in the NHL. And you could argue one or 2 other overpaid/bad contracts
What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?
"John Tavares(a top 10 forward in the NHL)"-Neil Greenberg
First of all, we weren’t talking about contracts. I’m not arguing that he’s given out a lot of bad contracts.
What I am arguing is that he’s a fantastic trade guy. We essentially dealt Voracek, a first, and a third for Johnson and a first. That deal is at least a wash and I personally think the Jackets came out ahead. Voracek is only cost controlled for this upcoming season, and then he’s going to get a lot more money than he deserves because some GM will still be in love with his skill set rather than his lack of production.
Trading a signed elitish/high-end checking center signed for a while in Vermette for a 2nd rounder
Vermette was not elite at all. He was getting paid like a top six player and he wasn’t performing like one. Vermette has actually been getting worse ever since he got traded here.
Then, once again, I submit such steals as Kris Russell for Nikita Nikitin, Filatov for a third round pick, a fourth round pick for Mark Letestu, etc.
In fact, the only really bad deal I think Howson has ever made was the one for Umberger.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 25, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
This year is [Johnson’s] fifth straight year having the worst Corsi on the team and his fourth straight year having the worst goals against rate. Entering this season, Johnson’s career goals against rate ranked 227th out of 228 NHL defensemen with 60+ games played. His career relative Corsi (the improvement in his team’s shot differential when he is on the ice) ranked 222nd out of 228, behind only Wade Belak, Jason Strudwick, Ryan Parent, Oskars Bartulis, Deryk Engelland, and Brendan Mikkelson.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 24, 2012 1:47 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
I feel bad for you guys.
1st Carter getting injuries and the whole "sad Carter not want to leave Philly" thing hurt. Than you guys give him away for the worst top 4 d-man in the NHL, and one that’s overpaid for half a decade.
1st question, What do you guys think of Wisniewski’s defense? Jack Johnson is noticably worse than that on D, just to give you a picture of what you are dealing with: http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/2/24/1892938/jack-johnson-is-not-good , Listen to 3rd parties on this, it’s gonna be a rough time with Jack Johnson on D, who literally hurts his team a lot more then he helps them, and is ultimately just a good/great PP specialist with very bad defensive tendencies.
And you traded away Carter for a 40pts playmaker and Sean Couturier(a projected future high-end/elite shutdown center with top 6 offensive upside), I hope you guys get a better GM or/and a great return for Nash. Nash is the 5th highest cap hit in the NHL and signed for a while, Nash isn’t the 5th best player in the nhl=overpaid/bad contract. So if you guys get rid of Nash, who is an elite scorer and 1st liner but just not worth his contract, you guys are gonna be having a brighter future. The next few years could be ugly though, emptying out a lot of talent for picks as it’s been. But if you guys can get some draft picks for Nash, multiple 1st rounders+ would be good, the future should be very bright. But the next few years are gonna be rough. Good luck.
What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?
"John Tavares(a top 10 forward in the NHL)"-Neil Greenberg
He’s pretty much is an AHL defenseman when he’s not on the PP. He could grow, sure, but how high is his ceiling? Somewhere around a slightly better Marc-Andre Bergeron?
I feel really bad because I want to see Columbus succeed, and here Howson goes again, making another bad trade (though, for selfish reasons, I want to see one last big deal with Washington). I mean, these “non-traditional” markets or “smaller” markets could all be solid like Nashville if they had committed ownership and competent management.
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by red army line on Feb 25, 2012 1:36 AM EST up reply actions
I will trust the professionals that have a job in the business on this one who say Johnson is a top four defenseman. Patrick is a smart man and there is no chance he would let Howson do this if Johnson is truly as bad as people are trying to say. To compare him to MAB is ridiculous.
Who knows what his peak is, but he is only 25. Most defenseman don’t break out until about 27 because it’s such a hard position to learn. He will mature defensively.
by cbjfan14 on Feb 25, 2012 11:59 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I think you’re overestimating some of the GMs around the league. Edmonton’s GM didn’t realize Colton Teubert was a frequent healthy scratch in Manchester before getting him in the Penner trade. LA’s GM was really critical of Johnson in an interview last year.
I don’t know how you can simply look past Johnson being on the ice for so, so, so many goals against. He doesn’t put up points at even strength, only on the power play. Trading Jeff Carter for a 1st and a vastly overpaid PP specialist (after all, how much do MAB-types get?) seems pretty uneven to me.
I don’t think the MAB comparison is ridiculous. MAB will give you 30+ points playing on your top PP, and if you don’t scratch him, he may get to 40 (he has hit 30+ in 60 games recently). That sounds like Johnson to me.
A lot of D have potential, sure. It’s nice to see that potential. Johnson is just so, so far behind the learning curve, though. Maybe seven or eight years. When you trade a two-way force like Carter for a D, you’d like a D who makes a big positive impact on the game, right, just like Carter does at F? He has two years to improve a long way when the biggest improvement years, from what I’ve seen, tend to be 18-23. How long are you going to judge him based on his draft position and power play point totals? (sidenote: I hope you really love Mike Green, then!)
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by red army line on Feb 25, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
I’d just like to remind everyone that the deal wasn’t Carter for Johnson. It was Carter for Johnson and a number 1 pick.
When you trade a two-way force like Carter for a D, you’d like a D who makes a big positive impact on the game, right, just like Carter does at F?
No. Not at all.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 25, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
A 1st for a team that’ll finish in the top 10 of the league. That’s good, but way less valuable than an EDM first, for example.
So, you don’t care if you trade Carter for Klein? Or Alberts? Or Witt?
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by red army line on Feb 25, 2012 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
So a mid-round 1st round pick and a PP-specialist/defensive mess/project d-man is a good return for a 30goal per year 2-way forward?
Right…..
What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?
"John Tavares(a top 10 forward in the NHL)"-Neil Greenberg
"Most defenseman don’t break out until about 27 because it’s such a hard position to learn."
Where the hell did you here that? That might be when most peak, but that’s not close to where most “break out”. Most d-men are either busts/career-ahlers or solid well rounded nhl d-men by 25/26. There is like a 95% chance that Jack Johnson turns out to be nothing more than an overpaid PP-specialist that is a disaster in his own zone and a complete mess at 5-on-5. He has hurt his team more than help them his whole career, negative impact player, and he gets paid like a top 4 d-man for the next half decade. And MAB is about as close a comparions as you can get with him. Next closest comparion I can think of for him is the highly overrated Ehrhoff, who not in the Nucks heavily sheltering system is finally being shown as nothing more than a PP-specialist that is terrible in his own zone. I could also see Jack Johson being compared to Joe Corvo or Zidlicky-“at this point in his career”. So please don’t say we didn’t warn you when he throws up a -30 next season, or possibly the worst possible negative plus minus season ever, I’m in huge anticipation to see how bad he can make that plus minus on a basement team, no offense, I know the feeling of a team being in the basement.
What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?
"John Tavares(a top 10 forward in the NHL)"-Neil Greenberg
Jason Garrisson and Corey potter are a couple of examples. When I say break out, I don’t mean break out into the league, I mean break out into what they are going to be. Usually by the age of 27-28 you know what a defenseman is going to be able to be in the NHL.
I’m not sold that Johnson is as bad as everyone on here is saying. Everyone is basing their opinion on one article someone wrote who literally said he hated Johnson. I would rather believe the professionals that actually have a job in the business like Bob McKenzie. The organization knows what they are getting. They have had professional scouts watch him and have had a HOFer approve trading Carter for him and a first. They know we aren’t paying for a shutdown defenseman at all. I’ll put my trust in them.
Also, you have to remember that 30 goal Carter has a lot of baggage. He obviously wasn’t very popular in the locker room considering a player said they knew a Carter trade would have to happen since “day one”. Pretty good return given the circumstances. Flyers media know what Carter can do and they all said we won the trade.
by cbjfan14 on Feb 26, 2012 10:15 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
.....
Jason Garrison: Played his “2nd” full season at 27yrs old, and it’s his 1st season in heavy PP time, where he can utilize his shot. And one of the most important parts of this story, Garrison was an undrafted player that the Panthers signed to a 2-way contract at “24yrs old”. Thus meaning, he came out of nowhere and wasn’t “highly” regarded at all till the Panthers found him “at 24yrs old”. An extenuating circumstance, and even at that, he couldn’t prove himself until he was given the shot. And Johnson has been given the shot over and over again and we’ve seen what he’s done.
Corey Potter: 4th round draft pick that was never expected to make the NHL. This is his “1st full” nhl season at 28yrs old, and according to stats, advanced and otherwise, he is a bad bottom pair d-man with puckmoving skills. Essentially a 7th man. His PP effectiveness in top PP minutes is good, his defense is a big work in progess, and his offensive abilities aren’t anything special aside from the PP. He’s nothing more than a PP specialist depth d-man. His 2-way numbers say he doesn’t warrant anything more then 6th/7th d-man even strength minutes and some PP time.
Neither of these examples are similar at all to Jack Johnson. Jack Johnson was a heavily hyped high draft pick. Jack Johnson has 4 full nhl seasons under his belt. Jack Johnson has been horrible defensively in all of them. Jack Johnson has proved to be an effective PP specialist in all of them. Johnson has proved to be a mediocre puckmover at even strength. Jack Johnson is 25yrs old and has a lot of nhl experience, teams/coaches usually know what they have in their d-men “for their career” with how much nhl experience and age Johnson has. He’s around or just about in his peak years. Advanced stats say he’s been a terrible d-man his whole career. Watching games of him shows he’s been a terrible defensive d-man his whole career. He’s hurt his team a lot more than he’s helped them at even strength, he’s a career -90 player and next to his teammates his plus minus is beyond bad. Odds are, he turns out to be a slightly sub-par defensive d-man “at best”. Everyone isn’t basing their assumption of Johnson off 1 interview. A lot of people league wide know just how bad he is in his own zone and know he’s at his best on the PP. Nothing more, nothing less. It is what it is.
I can hear you on the carter thing. But still, I’d rather keep an annoyed 25-30goal 2-way forward than trade him “for what you can get”.
What do you mean they won 4 cups in a row? Is that possible?
"John Tavares(a top 10 forward in the NHL)"-Neil Greenberg
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