2012 NHL Trade Deadline: Rick Nash's Trade Value
by Andy Newman on Feb 16, 2012 12:15 PM EST
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PrintRick Nash has been the hot story since word came down on Tuesday that he and the organization would entertain trade offers.
Many responses from fans of the New York Rangers, Vancouver Canucks, and Los Angeles Kings, three teams rumored to have interest in acquiring Nash, argue that he's being overvalued by CBJ GM Scott Howson or Blue Jackets fans.
Yesterday, Mike posted the only Rick Nash trade scenario he could handle.
Again, the backlash was that Nash wouldn't command a return of Cory Schneider, Cody Hodgson, and Keith Ballard OR Sami Salo and Mason Raymond.
Similarly, New York Rangers fans feel like Brandon Dubinsky, Chris Kreider, a 1st round pick, and potentially an NHL ready defenseman is too much for Nash.
I personally feel like the Kings are the best fit. They're stocked on defense and have a pipeline of solid goalie prospects. I like a deal where Nash is sent to Los Angeles for Jonathan Bernier, Jack Johnson, and Slava Voynov/Thomas Hickey OR a mid-prospect and first round pick.
All of these proposal's might seem too rich for Rick Nash... and maybe they are.
Here's the sticking point: The Blue Jackets don't have to trade Rick Nash. I believe this has been handled in such a way that if a great deal doesn't come through, Nash can continue to be a Blue Jacket with no hard feelings (at least no hard feelings that he would express). Remember the trade frenzy of 2009 that involved Vincent Lecavalier not being traded to the Montreal Canadiens? Maybe more importantly, this isn't Ilya Kovalchuk in 2010. Nash is already signed long-term and has repeatedly stated he's happy in Columbus and wants to see a winner here.
If the value isn't there for the Blue Jackets, they're not going to move him just to move him. This isn't a Jeff Carter situation, where the team wants to cut their losses and get some value while they can. And if Howson could move Carter and somehow get a goalie or defenseman in return, I think that would lessen the need of trading Nash. But again, if the value is there, he's going to make the trade, and that's why these conversations have started.
The true trade will likely fall somewhere between the two extremes, but ultimately unless the value is there for Columbus, I don't see them taking the deal.
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Interesting
You don’t feel Howson would want to acquire a promising (or proven) forward in the deal as well?
It would be nice, but given the team will likely be drafting Nail Yakupov, have the best forward in the AHL in Cam Atkinson, and other up and comers like Ryan Johansen, Matt Calvert, and Tomas Kubalik (not to mention players like Boone Jenner, Michael Chaput, and T.J. Tynan in Juniors/College) it’s not a necessity.
It wold be nice, for sure. But I think Howson knows he has to build the back end right first. A better defense may have prevented Mason from failing so badly.
Editor for The Cannon -- A Columbus Blue Jackets Blog
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by Andy Newman on Feb 16, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
I personally feel like the Kings are the best fit. They’re stocked on defense and have a pipeline of solid goalie prospects. I like a deal where Nash is sent to Los Angeles for Jonathan Bernier, Jack Johnson, and Slava Voynov/Thomas Hickey OR a mid-prospect and first round pick.
There is simply no way Johnson and Voynov would be involved in the same deal. If Johnson is involved, Voynov would have to replace him.
Personally, I hope LA has no part of this. The rumored asking price is too much, and even if it weren’t, Nash’s contract would wreak havoc on their cap situation now and going forward. It’s costly two ways.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
That’s fine.
The Jackets aren’t making the playoffs. The Kings are the ones trying to hold onto their spot.
If Voynov in the AHL helps you guys make the playoffs, more power to you.
(What I’m getting at here: The Blue Jackets can afford to be stubborn, because as the point of my post is, the team doesn’t NEED to trade Nash.)
Editor for The Cannon -- A Columbus Blue Jackets Blog
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No one’s arguing the contrary. But there’s still a limited number of buyers. Everyone seems to be balking now. If they don’t think the price is worth it, nothing will happen. I even think it would be better for you if he stayed put.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Everyone on message boards may be balking, but GMs of actual teams are in hot pursuit trying to put packages together.
You’re telling me a GM willing to include Brayden Schenn in a deal for Mike Richards, wouldn’t be willing to include Slava Voynov in a deal for Rick Nash? Um, ok.
by Re-SignZherdev on Feb 16, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
In fairness...
I think he’s saying that the GM doesn’t want to include BOTH Jack Johnson and Slava Voynov, because one covers the loss of the other in a deal.
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Everyone on message boards may be balking
Except you hear that from reporters with sources too.
My only objection to Voynov in the deal was Johnson plus Voynov. Voynov would be needed to replace JJ in the top four.
Of course prospects can be traded. Lombardi repeated over and over that Brayden Schenn wouldn’t be moved unless it was in a package for a marquee player. He traded a potential #2 center for a current #2 center. Teams weigh their needs and think about tradeoffs. I don’t see the need for your scorn.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
I even think it would be better for you if he stayed put.
I agree. I don’t get the rush to trade the teams best player just because the rest of the team is bad.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 16, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Moving any player should be fine it nets a positive return in the next 2-4 years. And that’s the thinking with moving anybody out of Columbus right now. It’s pretty tough to get a real goalie or top defenseman without giving up something extremely valuable. You’re not going to see a Rask/Schneider/Bernier and other pieces moved without a huge return.
While Rick Nash is an exceptional, special talent, if a desperate team gives up a ton to make a playoff run, the Jackets would be looking at a team with its youth scoring growing up (Johansen, Yakupov, Calvert, Atkinson, Brassard) while also having a legitimate set of players to stop the puck. That combination is something Columbus has never had. That’s where the appeal in moving Nash lies.
CCT, CBJ, SU, NYM, Bills Fan. It can be depressing.
Sometimes I tweet things
Moving any player should be fine it nets a positive return in the next 2-4 years.
And yet no other team is in a hurry to trade their stars.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2012 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
Well
Most teams with stars aren’t consistently sitting at the bottom of the league wasting those stars’ primes.
I think the comparison here to make is Calgary and Jarome Iginla. The Flames repeatedly tried to build around him with FAs and trades (Bouwmeester, Jokinen, etc.), but they never developed their own solid talent. They’re always just good enough to convince themselves they can win with their core, and now Iginla is 34, and up until they started to make a move in the standings the early season rumors were “Should the Flames trade him so he can win a Cup?”
I think that’s the fear here, to be honest.
That said, I’m still not in favor of trading Nash.
Writer for The Cannon - A Columbus Blue Jackets blog
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"I will say anything to be funny, often in the most horrible situations, which is one reason [a] good [woman] so far [has] been very sorry on occasion to have married me." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
That’s also not a very good reason to trade a player. You only trade a player if it improves your team. End of story. The jackets “wasting his prime” is not a concern. We don’t owe Rick Nash the chance to play for a winning team at our expense.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Would you rather wait a year until he asks for a trade? I think the organization realizes that demand is not far off. And doing it this way doesnt ruin his tremendous reputation. Also, if he were to ask a trade that hurts the team as we are put in a place where we dont have the leverage, we have to trade him and other teams know that.
I think everyone is really reallly devaluing Nash.
A top prospect, a pick, and a player with some offsetting salary, is just the starting point of a deal. kreider, Dubinsky,a 1st – that doesn’t even begin to get a deal done, that just meets the criteria to start.
The key is in addition to that, what young roster players ( all the “no way these guys get moved” ) players we can get in return. Nash is a superstar, 27, in his prime, locked up. He could fetch one of the biggest returns ever.
Don’t forget, renting tom as Kaberle and a year of Dustin Penner was worth a first and top prospect.
Cody hodgsen, Logan couture, Ryan McDonough, Michael dedl zotto…these are the type of players the jackets will be asking for. Teams may not be willing to, but it just takes one to t
This is why I believe I trade wont be made. In my opinion, and I’d say about 95% of Rangers fans (I’ve done a few polls now), Dubi, Kreider, and a 1st is too much.
Here’s the issue. No one is arguing that the amount of assets we would give us isn’t worth Nash. Most fans, myself included, are arguing that it isn’t worth Nash’s contract. If Nash was making 6 million, this deal would be done already.
At his given production, and great players historically DO NOT raise their production when they move to better teams, he is not worth his contract. In a few years, from the Rangers point of view, when Anisimov, McDonagh, Sauer, Hagelin, and DelZotto are RFA’s, we won’t be able to keep more than 2-3 of them.
In your mind he’s a superstar, to Ranger fans, and some other fans I’d imagine, he’s a 70 point scorer. Great player, but not worth the return Columbus is asking for, especially at his contract.
For Ranger fans a 45-50 point two-way forward, the top prospect in the system, and a 1st round pick is not worth a 65-70 point forward with a bad contract. The Rangers already have 3 players making over 6.5 mil, and bringing in another one is not the best idea.
Just an opposing fans point of view. In the cap world, it’s all about production relative to contract, and that severely lowers Nash’s value.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
I think it depends. Would you rather win the cup and then worry about the salary or would you rather hope to win the Cup with what you have now.
I dont think anyone would argue that if you made a trade like that it severely increases the chances of winning the Cup. You have a solid defensive corps and arguably the best goalie in the world. What you need is more scoring. Nash could bring that. He is a 70 point guy on a team with no supporting cast dishing him pucks.
No offense, but I dont see Kreider, Dubinsky and a first getting it done. I just dont. The first is not worth as much as it sounds since it will be late.
So I think it comes down to going like Chicago where you win the Cup and go from there, or you hope you can work your way to the Cup with what you have.
That’s the issue.
This trade by no means guarantees a cup. The Rangers team is built to win for the next 5 years or so. The core is young, and the older players are still in their prime. We’re not a one-and-done team.
The “supporting cast” thing doesn’t hold much weight, as great players don’t see an up-tick in their production when they go to better teams.
What we’re talking about is the exact issue here. The teams just don’t match. to be honest. The contract doesn’t fit with us (we already have three 6.6mil+ contracts), our team isn’t desperate to win this year, and we don’t have the assets you’re looking for.
Should we be Chicago or Anaheim, or strive to be a Detroit or Boston? I’d go with the latter option.
Also, I don’t think the best team in the league (% wise) really “needs” anything, to be honest.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
A team always needs something. And im not convinced the Rangers are the best playoff team right now. Need some more depth and scoring. Come playoff time, Gaborik, Richards, and Callahan wont have nearly as much space against a team like the Bruins. Chara will shut them down. Who do you go to? Dubinsky? He wont carry the offensive load. Anisimov? Still young, not sure.
Nash would really increase your chances at a Cup. I personally dont see the fit either, but its hard to argue he wouldnt make you a better team.
95 percent of rangers fans opinions are irrelevant to what Glenn Sather will do.
by Re-SignZherdev on Feb 17, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
When did I ever say that it did?
Read my post again please. I specifically said what most Ranger fans felt. I have no idea what goes on in Sather’s head, just how you have no idea what goes on in Howson’s head.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
rangers GM and owner care more about getting the cup this year than seeing how Krieder develops
by Re-SignZherdev on Feb 17, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Rick Nash isn’t Nathan Horton. All these fans of other teams be disrespectful and ignorant of him thinking he’s not worth a prospect or his cap hit, have not seen him play. GMs and people within the hockey world know his value and know how elite he is, and that landing him is a franchise defining moment. He will fetch a massive return.
Just identify the Al Davis of the NHL
Then ship Nash there for more than he’s worth.
by JoseOle on Feb 16, 2012 1:36 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
His name is Pierre Gauthier.
Nash for Subban, Price, and Leblanc. Done!
by Re-SignZherdev on Feb 16, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
I would hate to do that to Nash
The media there would eat him alive, and that’s just not fair to Rick!
Writer for The Cannon - A Columbus Blue Jackets blog
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"I will say anything to be funny, often in the most horrible situations, which is one reason [a] good [woman] so far [has] been very sorry on occasion to have married me." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
He is being over-valued
And this:
The Blue Jackets don’t have to trade Rick Nash
…is the reason why. They don’t want to trade Nash for what he’s worth, they want to trade Nash for more than what he’s worth. That’s exactly the right thing to do, and the CBJ management has absolutely no reason to accept anything less than an overpayment.
by B_T on Feb 16, 2012 4:18 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
PS
That isn’t to say he isn’t also being under-valued by some fans/media.
I think this is spot on 100%.
You guys don’t need to trade him, so you shouldn’t unless you are getting blown away. I think that’s where some of the resentment from other fan bases (my own included) comes from.
We know we would have to overpay for him, and no one wants to do that.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
/thread.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2012 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
Look at the recent trades of Carter and Richards. Those are the starting points. You could say Philly got more than they would have because of low cap hits, but conversely they got less as they were dealing from a position of weakness as everyone knew they needed the cap space for Bryz.
What I’m saying is a return for Nash would be a little more than what Philly got, namely either
-A top 10 pick and a potential top 6er OR
-A top 5 pick (seen as the best prospect outside the NHL) and a potential good 3rd/2nd liner
I’d say the starting point would be 2 first rounders, a top prospect, and a serviceable NHLer. Anything other than that and I hang up the phone.
Those are not the starting points. Carter and Richards are not Rick Nash, not even close.
by Re-SignZherdev on Feb 16, 2012 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
Also, refer to B_T’s comment above for exactly why.
Editor for The Cannon -- A Columbus Blue Jackets Blog
Follow me on Twitter - @andynewman
You guys don’t have to trade him, but realize other teams don’t have to trade for him either.
In terms of production versus cap hit, Carter is even more valuable than Nash (Not saying he’s better).
If you asked most fans of the teams Nash is being rumored to, they probably rather have Carter due to his contract. If you are a contending team with young pieces who need raises, you can’t afford to add a $7.8 million cap hit. It’s just too much for Nash’s production.
That’s where he’s being de-valued by other fan bases and medias.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
If you think by viewing Nash’s stats on NHL.com this year, you have any idea the kind of player he is, you are an idiot. He has a star players contract, he is a star player. It’s no worse than Marian Gaboriks contract. And unlike Gaborik, Nash plays every season and groin doesn’t force him to miss the majority of games every season
by Re-SignZherdev on Feb 17, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Nice to know we can have an intelligent discussion. I’m tempted to just stay away from you, because you are proving we can’t. Also, maybe you should look at stats yourself.
Since coming to the Rangers.. Gaborik played 72 games and 62 games, and has played every game this season. If that’s missing the majority of games every season, you need to look up the definition of majority.
It’s fine that we have opposing view points, but to call someone an idiot when they have facts in their favor and have shown that they have a strong command over the information available is the true mark of an “idiot”.
I’m not looking at just this year. Historically Nash doesn’t match his contract, no matter how much you like him. He is more likely to decrease in production than increase over the course of his contract, and the Rangers already have three players making over 6.6 million a year. They don’t need a fourth.
The Rangers are in a position to win long term, and % wise are the best team in the league. They don’t need to be desperate here, just like Columbus doesn’t.
If you disagree, fine, but please try to have an intelligent discussion instead of calling someone an idiot because you can’t come up with an intellectual response. Thanks.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
As a canuck fan I can tell you Nash isn’t heading to Vancouver. We’re up against the cap and have a team full of guys that took a home town discount. His salary doesn’t fit into how the team is built.
That said I hope Nash goes to someone like Calgary or Toronto as both teams will still be no threat to us even with him on the roster.
BTW, thank you for making this point. It’s a great discussion and it’s interesting to hear the other side’s POV.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
Nash and a second round pick for jack Johnson and Bernier. I would be ok with that deal
by FFmorgan89 on Feb 17, 2012 11:06 PM EST via mobile reply actions
philly in the nash trade
“As for the asking price for a player of Nash’s caliber? Probably Sean Couturier and Brayden Schenn," Panaccio wrote. "But … it may be something else. It may be James van Riemsdyk, another player, plus goalie Sergei Bobrovsky….
i would take couturier schenn riemsdyk and bobrovsky for nash
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