Does Columbus Need A First Line Center? Or Do We Already Have One?
If you look at previews, evaluations, and wish lists for the Blue Jackets over the past few years, there's a certain theme:
"Columbus needs a real First Line Center."
"Columbus needs a true center to play with Rick Nash."
"Columbus is weak down the middle - they don't really have a top line center."
From the most professional scouting reports to the bleacheriest blog on the Bleacher Report, almost everyone you ask says Columbus lacks a "real" first line center.
But what does that mean, exactly?
More to the point, if we can figure out what a "real" first line center is, what are the chances that the man currently in the post, Antoine Vermette, can become one, rather than the team going out on the trading block or hoping for a prospect like Ryan Johansen to suddenly sprout into one? (Sorry, Derick Brassard fans - until he shows me something more, I am assuming his ceiling is going to be a good second line guy.)
Can you define what "is" is?
First off, we need to figure out what a First Line Center is. To help with that question, I went to the other SBNation hockey bloggers and asked them a simple question:
"When I say 'A Real First Line Center', who comes to mind?"
The answers I got were interesting, to say the least. Here's the list:
- Pavel Datsyuk
- Sidney Crosby
- Nicklas Backstrom
- Joe Thornton
- Henrik Sedin
- Stephen Weiss
- Mike Richards
- Vincent Lecavalier
- Marc Savard
- Jonathan Toews
- Anze Kopitar
- Jason Spezza
So, as the joke goes, what do those guys have that we don't? I decided to look at each player's stats for the past two years - that way we can take into account things like Marc Savard's head being reduced into pudding for much of the past year that tend to skew someone's stats.
2008-2009
|
Player |
GP |
G |
A |
PTS |
+/- |
PIM |
SOG |
SPCT |
PPG |
PPA |
Faceoff% |
ATOI |
|
Datsyuk |
81 |
32 |
65 |
97 |
34 |
22 |
248 |
12.9 |
11 |
25 |
56.0 |
19:12 |
|
Crosby |
77 |
33 |
70 |
103 |
3 |
76 |
238 |
13.9 |
7 |
33 |
51.3 |
21:57 |
|
Backstrom |
82 |
22 |
66 |
88 |
16 |
46 |
174 |
12.6 |
14 |
28 |
48.7 |
19:57 |
|
Thornton |
82 |
25 |
61 |
86 |
16 |
56 |
139 |
18.0 |
11 |
24 |
55.4 |
19:28 |
|
H. Sedin |
82 |
22 |
60 |
82 |
22 |
48 |
143 |
15.4 |
4 |
22 |
49.6 |
19:31 |
|
Weiss |
78 |
14 |
47 |
61 |
19 |
22 |
154 |
9.1 |
4 |
17 |
51.0 |
14:47 |
|
Lecavalier |
77 |
29 |
38 |
67 |
-9 |
54 |
291 |
10.0 |
10 |
14 |
50.9 |
20:14 |
|
M. Richards |
79 |
30 |
50 |
80 |
22 |
63 |
238 |
12.6 |
8 |
25 |
49.0 |
21:44 |
|
Savard |
82 |
25 |
63 |
88 |
25 |
70 |
213 |
11.7 |
9 |
21 |
49.9 |
19:32 |
|
Toews |
82 |
34 |
35 |
69 |
12 |
51 |
195 |
17.4 |
12 |
10 |
54.7 |
18:38 |
|
Kopitar |
82 |
27 |
39 |
66 |
-17 |
32 |
234 |
11.5 |
7 |
16 |
49.5 |
20:27 |
|
Spezza |
82 |
32 |
41 |
73 |
-14 |
79 |
246 |
13.0 |
13 |
18 |
53.3 |
19:41 |
|
Vermette |
79* |
16 |
25 |
41 |
-7 |
42 |
174 |
10.9 |
3 |
9 |
57.7 |
18:69 |
*62 games w/ OTT, 17 w/ CBJ
2009-2010
|
Player |
GP |
G |
A |
PTS |
+/- |
PIM |
SOG |
SPCT |
PPG |
PPA |
Faceoff% |
ATOI |
|
Datsyuk |
80 |
27 |
43 |
70 |
17 |
18 |
203 |
13.3 |
9 |
16 |
55.1 |
20:21 |
|
Crosby |
81 |
51 |
58 |
109 |
15 |
71 |
298 |
17.1 |
13 |
21 |
55.9 |
21:57 |
|
Backstrom |
82 |
33 |
68 |
101 |
37 |
50 |
222 |
14.9 |
11 |
26 |
49.9 |
20:27 |
|
Thornton |
79 |
20 |
69 |
89 |
17 |
54 |
141 |
14.2 |
4 |
25 |
53.9 |
19:51 |
|
H. Sedin |
82 |
29 |
83 |
112 |
35 |
48 |
166 |
17.5 |
4 |
23 |
49.5 |
19:41 |
|
Weiss |
80 |
28 |
32 |
60 |
-7 |
40 |
180 |
15.6 |
12 |
10 |
52.4 |
20:00 |
|
Lecavalier |
82 |
24 |
46 |
70 |
-16 |
63 |
295 |
8.1 |
5 |
20 |
53.2 |
19:47 |
|
M. Richards |
82 |
31 |
31 |
62 |
-2 |
79 |
237 |
13.1 |
13 |
18 |
50.7 |
20:25 |
|
Savard |
41 |
10 |
23 |
33 |
2 |
14 |
90 |
11.1 |
6 |
11 |
48.8 |
18:35 |
|
Toews |
76 |
25 |
43 |
68 |
22 |
47 |
202 |
12.4 |
9 |
13 |
57.3 |
20:00 |
|
Kopitar |
82 |
34 |
47 |
81 |
6 |
16 |
259 |
13.1 |
14 |
24 |
49.7 |
21:47 |
|
Spezza |
60 |
23 |
34 |
57 |
-1 |
20 |
165 |
13.9 |
11 |
13 |
50.5 |
19:04 |
|
Vermette |
82 |
27 |
38 |
65 |
2 |
32 |
156 |
17.3 |
6 |
6 |
54.2 |
20:09 |
Looking at these, I think it's tempting to say that point production is what defines a first line center, but if that's the case, Vermette would already be in the conversation, as his point production, particularly since moving to Columbus, isn't that different from some of these examples. Admittedly, he isn't breaking the high end of the curve like a Crosby or a Backstrom, but his 65 points last season were still quite respectable compared to guys like Mike Richards, Toews, or even Datsyuk.
If we look at time on ice, again, Vermette's 20:09 is perfectly reasonable - most of the first liners seem to average between 19-21 minutes a night.
Shots on goal? Possibly - I don't think it's a coincidence that so many of these players record over 200 shots on goal a season. There are exceptions (Joe Thornton's shot totals are surprisingly low), but it would seem the first liner should be willing to shoot as often as pass. Interestingly, though, Vermette's actual scoring percentage last year (17.3) was one of the best of the group. Clearly he knows where to place his shots when he takes them. Hopefully the new coaching staff will recognize this and encourage Antoine to shoot more frequently.
Assists are another key stat that seems to define a first line player. In fact, nearly every person who gave me their opinion said that one of the major roles of a top line center is to set up the guys on his line. By that logic, he should always have more assists than goals. The numbers seem to agree with this - the only players to get close, or even pull even, were Sidney Crosby, Mike Richards, and Stephen Weiss. The others all had around half again more assists than goals. Vermette was close in this category - if he'd scored three or four more assists he'd have it sewn up.
Faceoffs were the final stat that virtually everyone agreed with. To borrow from the response I got from Cassie McClellan of Raw Charge:
If a center can't take faceoffs, but is still racking up the minutes and the points, that invalidates him as a true first line center for me. The whole point of being a center is taking faceoffs and setting up your wingers for shots, and if you can't at least do that, then you're not really playing the position as its intended.
Using that logic, though, there are a lot of players on this list who need to brush up on their skills. I was surprised that most hang around the 50% mark in the faceoff dot - and several were below that bar. Again, however, Vermette puts in a good showing. We knew when he was acquired he was a skilled faceoff man (in fact, he was 3rd overall in the league at faceoffs in 2008-2009), but I wouldn't have expected him to still outdraw players like Sedin and Thornton even in a "down" year.
There's one last area we haven't touched on in the initial discussion that needs to be brought up: The Power Play.
Here's where Vermette really seems to take a step back. While his 6 power play goals are fairly solid, he had the least PPA of the group, only accounting for 6 setups with the man advantage. Most of these first line talents tend to bring in at least 18. This is, admittedly, a stat that depends as much on his teammates as it does himself, but it's certainly an area where he could bear to step up.
On the other hand...
As we got into this discussion, noted stats addict Derek Zona from over at The Copper & Blue brought up a different argument: it's not about a "first line", or any line, but about the type of minutes a player sees. To that effect, he pointed me at this article about forwards who see the "Toughest" minutes - playing against the opponent's top lines and being able to outscore that competition.
If we use that logic, we still see a few repeats - Weiss, Datsuyk, Mike Richards, but we also see guys like Mikko Koivu, Eric Staal, RJ Umberger and Sammy Pahlsson. Interesting, but I have to admit I'm not totally sold on this being the real bellwether.
Derek clarified his position a bit by saying "Any center that is among the team lead in scoring while playing toughs is a "first-line center" for me, I guess. If you've got a center that can't play the toughs, you've got a second-minutes center. "
This, I think, I can agree with. So, where did Vermette come in for the Jackets? According to the NHL Advanced Statistics page over at Behind The Net for the 2009-2010 season? Pretty well. (Warning: You should probably go read this FAQ if you're not familiar with the stats pages over at BtN.)
|
MARC METHOT |
D |
60 |
15.88 |
30.21 |
-0.50 |
0.064 |
0.029 |
1.160 |
1.188 |
-0.828 |
-4.777 |
|
RICK NASH |
RW |
76 |
14.80 |
31.93 |
0.36 |
0.050 |
0.078 |
1.020 |
1.879 |
-0.992 |
-4.980 |
|
JAN HEJDA |
D |
62 |
16.31 |
30.68 |
-0.52 |
0.047 |
-0.033 |
1.226 |
1.575 |
-1.607 |
-5.040 |
|
SAMUEL PAHLSSON |
C |
79 |
12.82 |
33.87 |
-0.12 |
0.045 |
-0.170 |
1.088 |
2.003 |
-1.665 |
-4.861 |
|
ROSTISLAV KLESLA |
D |
26 |
14.88 |
30.93 |
-0.71 |
0.035 |
0.065 |
1.048 |
0.981 |
-1.746 |
-5.089 |
|
KRISTIAN HUSELIUS |
LW |
74 |
14.18 |
32.54 |
0.31 |
0.029 |
0.116 |
1.015 |
1.529 |
0.164 |
-4.357 |
|
R.J. UMBERGER |
C |
82 |
13.07 |
33.53 |
-0.53 |
0.028 |
0.023 |
0.790 |
1.447 |
0.327 |
-4.008 |
|
FEDOR TYUTIN |
D |
80 |
16.37 |
30.27 |
0.41 |
0.020 |
-0.053 |
0.879 |
1.521 |
1.088 |
-3.415 |
|
ANTOINE VERMETTE |
C |
82 |
14.27 |
32.33 |
0.79 |
0.017 |
0.034 |
0.898 |
1.585 |
-0.024 |
-4.247 |
That puts him at #9 on the team for over all quality of competition, and 5th among forwards. Considering that two of the other forwards ahead of him are his normal line mates of Rick Nash and Kristian Huselius, I'd say that he satisfies the competition portion. Vermette's 65 points were also second overall on the team for scoring, and his 27 goals were second on the team behind Rick Nash.
Looking at Qualcomp numbers for some of the other top line players we've mentioned, though, Vermette (and the Blue Jackets as a whole) do need to improve - while it would be difficult to expect the team to meet Mike Richard's .109 QualComp, Spezza, Lecavalier, Backstrom, Thornton, Crosby, and Weiss are all above a .060. (Though I was surprised to find that Datsyuk was only a .021, Kopitar a .016 and Henrik Sedin actually recorded a -.013!)
I think it's safe to say Vermette isn't terrible here, but he could be better - and so could the rest of the Blue Jackets. This is also a stat where, with the exception of Weiss, we're comparing players on playoff teams to a player on a lottery team. If the team's on-ice performance improves next season, it may be worth revisiting this stat to see how he compares against the group again.
So, what do we have?
Going through these stats, what I believe we've settled on in defining a first line center is that he is a player who is solid in the face off circle, will be a top point producer on his team, particularly with the man advantage, should be scoring more assists than goals, and should be on the ice playing effectively against his opponent's best players
Using that argument, I believe that Antoine Vermette is much closer to becoming a first line center than CBJ fans,and the hockey world in general, have given him credit for. While he does have areas that need some clear improvement, in most of the major categories he has already met or exceeded the criteria, and gives a good accounting of himself when compared to his peers.
We've said before that this is a big year for Vermette. Dark Blue Jacket has also produced a great piece on how Vermette has been leading the team in "Clutch" and "Pace setting" goals, and how he needs to step up his game. We draw some of the same conclusions, and we differ in a few others, but the underlying tone is that Vermette could become a player equal to the caliber of his superstar linemate and Captain with just a few (relatively) small improvements to his game.
I believe that if he can rise to this challenge, we'll stop asking when Columbus will get a "real" top line center, because he'll make it crystal clear to the entire NHL that they already have one.
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Fantastic work.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Aug 26, 2010 9:53 AM EDT reply actions
This was great! This will be a big season for Antoine, I really think its his time to elevate himself into the “elite” group.
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by Andrew Tolliver on Aug 26, 2010 10:51 AM EDT reply actions
Matt – nice piece. I think Columbus just needs to move to another division and stop playing Det, Chi and Nsh so much!
Really, honestly, if Columbus was magically moved to the Eastern Conference, I think you’d suddenly see the team take off. But, if wishes were horses…
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by Matt Wagner on Aug 26, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Great look at the other “top” centers in the league. I would like to add though that there I think a top center (i.e. Marleau) would be great just from a PR standpoint almost. Obviously Vermette is at least showing that he is on his way to being a great first line center, but I think the team needs to get the confidence and the support from the hockey world that they actually have a name center, not just one who puts up the numbers.
I still would have liked to have seen a play for Jiri Hudler out of Detroit last season when he was an RFA, it could have at least been addition by subtraction with not have it play against him anymore.
I’m not comfortable with the idea of making a move just for “PR” purposes – it reminds me a bit too much of the Federov deal, or Adam Foote, or Anson Carter, or…well, nearly every move ExDMGM would make.
Besides, if a guy like Marleau had hit the UFA market, how much would the team have been putting out for him? 6 million? 7?
The money that would have gone to making a PR splash is going instead to extending guys like Voracek, Mason, and eventually Filatov. I think I’m OK with that.
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PR splash was a wrong way for me to phrase it…I just think the team needs to get someone that is a legitimate NHL center, I don’t think Antoinne Vermette will live up to that in Columbus, they need a name that is also a great player (unlike Fedorov, Foote, Carter etc…)
I disagree – I think other than improving how he contributes on the PP, Vermette is doing everything possible to become that guy. How is a guy who was two points off the lead for the entire club and managed to finish with a positive +/- not a great player?
Look at the numbers again, and don’t forget last year was his first full season with the club. If he can improve in Arniel’s system, he could very well put up more points.
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If he can improve in Arniel’s system, he could very well put up more points.
I see this being the case with a lot of our guys. Maybe Brass decides to break out and push Antoine a little bit. Who knows?
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by Andrew Tolliver on Aug 26, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Vermette was 21st in the NHL in ES scoring last year.
And 7th among listed centers.
I don’t watch enough CBJ to know why he’s the only one in the top 19 of centers with less than 21 PP points, but that’s really the least of your worries. You have a guy logging 2:30 minutes of PK time, on top of 2:30 PP time, plus wins 54% of his faceoffs, and is a force at ES. In my book, that’s a #1 center, no different than Mike Richards or Toews.
As long as you still have Pahlsson to play the toughs, there’s really nothing to worry about. There’s only a select view in the Crosby/Sedin/Backstrom class. You just need someone who doesn’t get overrun, and Vermette seems to be that guy.
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by George E. Ays on Aug 26, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The biggest reason for the lack of PP assists is mostly that our powerplay is at best horribly inconsistent.
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That’s a lot of good work in the article, but I think you’re going about this the wrong way. Being a “first-line” center isn’t just a matter of numbers. True, you need the stats to get you there, but it takes more than having similar stat lines to make someone what we’re calling a “first-line center”. The kind of player we’re talking about here is one that when you see him step on the ice, you know that he can change the game at will. Any of the guys you mentioned have that quality. They’re the people you know you have to watch, unless you want to risk missing something great. It’s the kind of feeling you get when you see Rick Nash on the ice. And no one (should) get that kind of feeling from seeing Vermette with the puck.
The thing I wonder is, when you have that kind of game-changing player on the wing, like Nash, do you really need the kind of player you call a “first line center” to be successful? Is a solid center who can play a lot of minutes and put up decent point numbers enough? Yes, based on your list, Ovechkin has Backstrom in Washington, but does anyone point to Nicklas Backstrom as the wheel that turns the Caps?
One small note on the original point of “needing” a center for Nash…the Pens have “needed” a winger to play with Crosby for 5 years now, and they seem to be fine. The Jackets’ problems lie elsewhere.
It’s a worthwhile question – personally, I think the team’s biggest need is to improve their puck moving at the blue line – but I think that the team DOES need a player who can help make the most of Nash’s ability, and Vermette has shown that he’s a good fit to do that.
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I really hope you are right. To me, Vermette taking a step forward is more important than Mason taking a step forward for this simple reason: If Mase falls on his face, we at least have Garon who last year proved he was a capable back up, if Vermette doesn’t step up, then there is no one that is able to pick up the number 1 center position (sorry, Brassard just hasn’t shown he can do it and I think R.J. fits in better at a wing than center)
He came up towards the end of the discussion, but since I already had 12 other players to use as comparables, I decided to cut things off there.
His stat line also isn’t that out of the ordinary from the rest of the group.
Last year: 66GP, 19G, 50A, +4, 8 PPG, 14 PPA, 21:40 ATOI and a 47.4% faceoff percentage.
2008: 81 GP, 25 G, 66A, +5, 9 PPG, 28 PPA 20:07 ATOI, 50.2% faceoff percentage.
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i see Vermette as a VERY good 2nd line Center. but dont consider him a first line center and Far Far way from “elite” as someone said he could turn into this year/ ( elite? really?") but when i watch him he just doesnt have that wow factor that number one centers like Datsyuk or Backstrom have. do i think he can hold his own on the top line? sure. but that doesnt make him a true number one center. and for that matter. i dont really see Weiss as a top line center either i think he is comparable to vermette in saying that he is a very good number 2. and as for Lecalvaier. he has been falling in production for several years. who knows if Boucher will get that spark back.
Regardless of what the “experts” say about the best centers in the game, two things will hold true:
1) Vermette will be one of the best in the league. He’s great in the faceoff circle, he can score, and assist consistently. He’s also fast and is responsible defensively. He won’t lead the league in scoring, but he’ll do the job he needs to do to help the Jackets WIN.
2) No one will know about it because he’s playing in Columbus.
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by Andrew Tolliver on Aug 26, 2010 4:47 PM EDT reply actions
Vermette is 28
he is in the prime of his career he isnt going to get much better than he is now. i could get behind it if he were 20-23 but he isnt. vermette will not be one of the best in the league. he will be where he is at now between 20-25. ( if you would like i would be more than happy to list 20 centers that are better than vermette.) again im not knocking him cause he is one of my favorite players on the team. and he is a VERY good number 2 but hardly a legit number 1 center.
Why do you have to dispute every point I make? I absolutely appreciate the difference in opinion because it creates more conversation, but I feel you have to take the opposite side of everything I say. I honestly think if you rank the 30 #1 centers on every team, Vermette would legitimately have a place in the 18-20 range, but because he plays on a small market team, no one is going to notice.
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by Andrew Tolliver on Aug 27, 2010 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions
how am i not supposed to dispute vermette being an “elite” center. and that he is going to be one of the best? he MAY be in the top 30 but that does not make him a LEGIT number 1.
Ok we’ll see how this plays out during the season then.
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by Andrew Tolliver on Aug 27, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
What is a first line center?
A very simple way of putting this is that there are 30 teams in the league. Therefore, if the players were equally distributed, the top 30 centers in the league would be first line centers. Is Vermette one of the top 30 centers in the league? I say he is, coming in somewhere in the mid to late 20’s. It puts him on the lower end of first line centers, but a first line center nonetheless.
Hey guys, do you see The Jackets trading Samuel Pahlsson? And for whom? Are the Jackets looking more for prospects or established players? Lemme know.
Hi!
Right now, no, I don’t see them trading him. He’s too valuable in the tough minutes and to shut down other teams’ top lines.
IF Howson was to consider it, a top 4 puck moving defenseman would have to be coming back the other way.
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I don’t see a reason to. He does a great job shutting opposing players down and he’s a great defensive forward.
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by Andrew Tolliver on Aug 27, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok thats kind of vague and redundant. He’s responsible in all areas of the ice. Good in faceoffs, makes smart passes, things like that.
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by Andrew Tolliver on Aug 27, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Too many “experts” (armchair GM’s) don’t know enough about him or don’t care to listen. All they know is the mantra “Nash needs a center”, that’s all they hear. He may not be an elite center but he most certainly is by any measure a very serviceable first liner.


























